Wednesday, May 16, 2007

Neurodiversity Attacks the Methodist Church

Once again, Mrs Nitwit is up in arms because hardly anyone responded to a letter that she sent to a bunch of people in the Methodist church complaining about children being helped by scientists. It speaks well for the church that they ignore nitwits.

Mrs Nitwit claims that Rev Sykes has a conflict of interest in campaigning against poisoning babies with thimerosal due to the fact that the Reverend has a lawsuit pending. Huh?! How is it any sort of conflict to not wish to see more babies poisoned into the nightmare known as autism? This woman's baby was disabled, possibly for life by poisonous vaccines and Mrs Nitwit sees her lawsuit to compensate the child for that injury as a conflict of interest? Is this how Mrs Nitwit advocates for autistic people, by calling action that helps them a conflict of interest?

I'd love to see a national poll for all parents of autistic children to see how many think a lawsuit against a company who poisoned their child is a conflict of interest while trying to raise public awareness so that more children are not poisoned.

Mrs Nitwit claims that she wants to help reduce suffering in autistic children and adults. I wonder if she'll explain to the children whose autistic symptoms have been reduced with Lupron how her campaign against Lupron helps those kids. Maybe Mrs Nitwit is truly concerned about the children having to face the cold, cruel world and she thinks they'd be safer locked up in institutions. I can't find any other logical reason that one who wants to reduce their suffering would be against treatments that help these kids. Maybe Mrs Nitwit will explain this to me.

89 comments:

Googlybear said...

Wow, I went to Seidel's blog and and what a self-righteous bitch. She is all up in arms because she didn't get enough responses to her letter. What business is it of hers what the Methodist church does? Why does she care so much to keep thimerosol in vaccines. What difference does it make in the long run to her if vaccines are thimerosol free? At the least it is being on the safe side, no problem there. No wonder you accuse them of being drug company shills.

Fore Sam said...

Googly, Exactly, who does she think she is. It's bad enough she attacks parents and decent scientists but attacking a Church sounds like some sort of hate crime. I wouldn't be surprised to see her start bashing parents who pray for God to help their children. She'll probably want concentration camps for autistic children next.

james said...

googlybear,
"WoW" indeed. What a sense of self importance that woman has. I've never seen anything like it! I'm seriously starting to think she's finally lost the plot.

John,
"who does she think she is."
I think she is suffering from some form of mental illness.
My step mother has bipolar manic depression, and was both mad and bad when she was going through a manic phase.
Is Seidel in a permanent "manic state" and having dellusions of grandeur?
I cannot believe the amount of peole she copied and sent that letter to. And the fact that she listed all their email addresses for all to see!!!
She's probably franticly searching for some Catholic church member to expose as anti-thimerosal, so she can write to the pope.

Fore Sam said...

James, I'm Catholic. I hope she doesn't write a haughty letter to the Pope about me complaining that I don't abuse children by letting them rot.

Googlybear said...

attacking a Church sounds like some sort of hate crime.

Not just her, but read the responses. I swear, the ND people will support any swill that is vomitted up against biomed oriented parents, doctors and scientists. Look at the first comment from that Big White Hat guy. He is all full of the wrath of God indignation, claiming the Methodist church is "preaching another gospel". Why, because they are taking a stance on a social/medical issue? I wonder what God would think of him opposing cures for autistic children. Especially since Jesus spent a good part of His ministry healing people. Could you imagine Jesus telling the blind guy to celebrate his vision diversity? These people are warped in a very fundamental way.

Fore Sam said...

Jesus might turn them into real autistics, lock them up and throw away the key. How sick do these people have to be to attack anyone who helps disabled kids? Now the Methodists know how the Jews feel with Neorodiversity attacking their religion.

Googlybear said...

I didn't have a chance to read all of Seidel's questions. Her last one was so arrogant, I don't even know what to say. This is after her second to last question where she insinuates that the UMC is going to be responsible for outbreaks of disease by opposing thimerosol in vaccines. I really do think she has crossed the line into treading on their religious freedom of expression. Here is her arrogant final question:

Does your email represent the official and final response of the United Methodist Church to my concerns? The questions I have raised are not idle ones. Do you or your colleagues intend to address them, or do you intend to proceed with your sponsorship of your “educational event” as if I had never asked them?

As though an international religious organization is supposed to come to a screeching halt because some person named Kathleen Seidel wrote them a bunch of questions. I am seriously beyong agast, just who does she think she is. How dare she question and command a religious organization to bow to her demands. They are not a government funded organization, they have no obligation to her. I think the women's organization was being kind to even waste their time addressing her. Most of the bishops probably looked at her long list of long questions and thought, what the heck is this person babbling about.

maxima said...

Where do you dig up these nut cases Foresam? This lady is not making any sense, is there a law that states that the church is not allowed to support a cause they believe in? She even posted all the e-mail addresses to all the Bishops of the United Methodist Church.

I'm starting to assume anyone posting as anonymous on here is what you call a Nitwit and I'm starting to see the whole picture here.
The pharmaceutical companies will lose a lot of money if the truth is exposed and it's good to have a bunch of anonymous posters that claim to have autistic children and get all emotional if you mention anything about toxic vaccinations.

Anonymous said...

And Mom26children, another leader of the Neurodiverse, says in her latest post: "I awoke Mother's Day to a mess of grated cheese on the floor....coffee spilled on my counter.....pillow cushions off the couch.....

I was wondering how long it would take her kids to begin destroying the FREE, new house. She will, however, continue to think they are just fine the way they are. So strange and disturbing.

Anonymous said...

If all thimerosol is removed from vaccines and the incidence of autism goes down then a definite co-relation will be shown. Those who claim autism is nothing more than neurodiversity will be proven wrong. They don't want that even if it means disabling their kids.

These same people also have the same response to Down's Syndrome. It is not a disease and should not be treated, screened for etc.

I knew a little girl many years ago with Down's who like many kids with Down's needed heart surgery. Isn't that a treatement specific to Downs? Would ND have denied her that needed surgery?

Any good parent wih a Down's kid would love it, but if you could avoid having a child with a disability, you would. I know I would.

My main argument is and always has been that vaccines, with or without thimerosol, are still poisonous and do not prevent disease. They are based on faulty science and do nothing but make money for drug companies.

Anonymous said...

"My main argument is and always has been that vaccines, with or without thimerosol, are still poisonous and do not prevent disease. They are based on faulty science and do nothing but make money for drug companies."

there seems to be a growing number who are realizing this, myself included.

back to Seidel. anyone else notice this woman has a major case of OCD? she seems really obsessive. or extremely well paid by pharma. wonder which it is.

james said...

Anon,

"back to Seidel. anyone else notice this woman has a major case of OCD? she seems really obsessive. or extremely well paid by pharma. wonder which it is."

I thought that maybe she was is "manic state", but there's difinatelty something not right up top.

Either way, Big Pharma have got the perfect woman for the job!
I wonder if her direct superior gets danger money for putting up with her.

Anonymous said...

'I wonder if her direct superior gets danger money for putting up with her.'..........

They might have to invite Amanda Baggs for dinner. You'd need danger money for that alone. Does anyone keep that much food in their house at any one time?

Googlybear said...

I also thought Seidel seemed manic or OCD. Any person with common sense who really wanted questions answered, would have understood that you don't bombard strangers with 20 essay questions. She hadn't earned the right to that much time from a group of strangers she wasn't offering financial compensation to for their time. I'm still shaking my head. She is either completely devoid of self awareness, nuts or a jackass.

Fore Sam said...

Googly, I vote for Jackass.

james said...

I'm sorry this is such a long post but I didn't want to leave a link as I think a lot of people don't read them.

I think Seidel should read this.
When I think of her pompous and "self righteous" letter after reading the following, I feel ill.

Kathleen Seidel. If you had half a heart you would leave Rev Sykes and his church alone.


"What killed Sally Clark’s child?
Neville Hodgkinson

Sally Clark spent three and a half years in jail wrongly convicted of murdering two of her babies after a jury was assured there was no other explanation for their sudden deaths than that she had deliberately smothered them. Yet five hours before her second child, Harry, was found lifeless in his baby chair, he had been injected with a combined vaccine with a long history of serious adverse reactions.

Harry was eight weeks old, the regulation age for the first of three injections against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis (DTP) and Hib (a bacterial infection that can cause meningitis). He was also given an oral polio vaccine. His biological age was five weeks, as he had been born three weeks premature. Because of the previous sudden death of his brother, Christopher, his breathing was being monitored. He was uncharacteristically dozy from the time of his jabs to the time he died.

Not many people know these facts, because at Sally’s trial the defence did not mention immunisation as a possible cause of death. Two prosecution witnesses, including the paediatrician Professor Sir Roy Meadow, assured the jury it could be discounted. Their statements went unchallenged, and the issue did not form any part of the appeal hearings. Professor Meadow, a former member of a Department of Health sub-committee on adverse reactions to vaccines, told the jury that he could not think of any natural explanation for Harry’s or Christopher’s deaths.

Yet the DTP vaccine they both received can unquestionably cause alarming and occasionally life-threatening reactions in susceptible babies. The pertussis (whooping cough) component, made from whole cells of the microbe, has been especially implicated as a cause of permanent brain damage and death. The evidence was spelled out in an unpublished 150-page report to the Department of Health by Dr Gordon Stewart, emeritus professor of public health at the University of Glasgow and a world authority on vaccine safety.

Professor Stewart’s report, first submitted at the request of the chief scientist in 1983 and updated in 1998 and 2006, also shows that, unlike the other vaccines, pertussis is ineffective — there has been widespread recurrence of whooping cough in fully vaccinated children in Europe and the USA. For these reasons several countries, including West Germany, Italy and Japan, removed it from their infant vaccination schedule. The report calls on the UK to do the same.

Harry Clark died in 1998, when the DTP vaccine also contained a controversial preservative, thiomersal, comprising 50 per cent mercury. Its use in childhood vaccines has recently been phased out in the UK, following concerns that it may have contributed to a rise in developmental disorders, especially autism. Last year the whole-cell pertussis vaccine was also finally abandoned in the UK, years after most other countries, in favour of a safer version.

Sally Clark, a solicitor, was freed after a huge campaign by friends, family and other supporters who recognised a gross miscarriage of justice. Her story was told by John Batt, also a solicitor and a family friend, in his book Stolen Innocence, described by the British Medical Journal as ‘a terrible indictment of the criminal system, the legal profession and our own experts’. The book highlighted seemingly arbitrary, shifting and conflicting ‘expert’ opinions. Where some saw signs of abuse, others were emphatic that these were probably misinterpretations of natural events, including damage at birth and post mortem. Mrs Clark had a serious drink problem, which worsened after Christopher’s death; but there was no evidence of her being anything other than a caring mother towards her children.

The main reason for her eventual release was the discovery of a microbiology report, not disclosed to the defence, showing that Harry had a common bacterial infection when he died. Again, experts disagreed about the significance of this report, but at a second appeal the judges ruled it made the convictions unsafe.


This vindication, such as it was, came too late. On 16 March this year Sally Clark was found dead at the family home in Essex. She was 42. An inquest heard that she appeared to have died from natural causes. The results of more detailed tests are awaited, but friends suggested she died of a broken heart. She had spoken of how her eventual acquittal did not end her ordeal; of how she did not feel she had ever really proved her innocence.

Could that be because the most likely cause of Harry’s death — an adverse reaction to the vaccines — was neither put to the jury nor formed a part of public discussion surrounding the case?

An examination of related legal and other correspondence has now made clear the reason for this extraordinary omission. It is that child health experts, following public loss of confidence in vaccination when the risks of brain damage were first publicised, were trying to maintain a united front in preventing further debate. Even paediatricians who gave testimony on Mrs Clark’s behalf told defence lawyers that if vaccination were mentioned as a possible cause of Harry’s death, they would dispute it. Not wanting to confuse the jury, and with judges having a history of bowing to dominant medical opinion, the defence decided to stay silent on the issue.

With hindsight, it is clear that this was a bad decision. Not just for Sally Clark, her husband, her surviving child, her family and friends, but because of the suppression of evidence of potentially vital importance to public health. Deaths and major injuries from vaccines are rare, but if professionals take an ostrich-like attitude towards those that do occur — and instead blame the parents — the scene could be set for a major disaster.

In fact, a disaster may already be upon us. Before 1990 the DTP vaccine was given to babies at three, five, and ten months. In 1990, despite previous safety controversies, an accelerated schedule was introduced, with injections at two, three and four months. This meant that by body weight, babies were now receiving bigger burdens of mercury and other toxins in the vaccines than previously, and at younger ages. There are concerns that this increased risk in early childhood may have contributed to a big increase in disorders linked to varying degrees of faulty brain circuitry.

According to a major national survey conducted in the UK in 2004, one in 100 children aged five to 16 had been diagnosed as suffering from autistic spectrum disorder (ASD), a range of developmental impairments affecting social and communication skills and sometimes accompanied by behavioural problems including hyperactivity and impulsiveness. Although this was a ‘snapshot’ survey that said nothing about changes over time, previous smaller studies have suggested far lower incidence.

In the US, where drug safety regulation and pharmaceutical practices often parallel those in the UK, diagnosis of autism has been based since 1994 on clear criteria outlined in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. The medical diagnosis is usually reviewed by specialists in special education, before services are provided in the different school districts. In 1994 there were 22,780 children aged six to 21 diagnosed with autism and ASD. By 2004 this number had risen to 140,972.

Argument continues over the possible causes of these changes. Some say the increase is only apparent, and is caused through greater awareness, or diagnostic fashion. Others point to medicine’s increasing skill in keeping very premature babies alive. Lisa Blakemore-Brown, a psychologist specialising in autism and related disorders, says she saw the numbers clearly increasing during the 1980s and 1990s and believes many teachers as well as parents and children are suffering intensely as a result — especially when there is a delay in recognising the nature of the problem. Her book Reweaving the Autistic Tapestry was cited in a House of Lords debate in 2003 as ‘required reading in every LEA — and in the Department of Health’. Peers also spoke of how it is often the prison system that finally has to deal with many of the youngsters involved.


Blakemore-Brown now has no doubt that vaccines are a contributory cause, though she did not make the link for several years. Previously, her main concern was with the best ways of diagnosing, educating and treating, at a time when many of the child-ren’s difficulties were not recognised or understood. Gradually, she began to take notice of parental reports of children changing immediately after vaccination.

Sometimes there was video evidence, as when a baby girl was filmed eating with relish, and later the same day — all times and dates automatically documented on the film — lying flat out on the floor after receiving DTP. The next day she was a different child, dribbling and with her mouth moving oddly. Later film showed her with ‘dead’ eyes, as her mother described it. ‘I saw that child when she was eight years old,’ says Blakemore-Brown. ‘By then she had experienced years of learning difficulties, many very subtle, but damaging to her life nevertheless. The fight the parents have had to get education for her has been extraordinary.’ The mother even had to rebut an allegation of Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSBP), in which a parent invents false illness for the child, sometimes faking or creating symptoms through deliberate harm.

Professor Sir Roy Meadow was first to describe MSBP. Previously held in high esteem for his work in this field, in 2005 he was struck off by the General Medical Council for giving ‘erroneous’ and ‘misleading’ evidence that helped wrongly convict Sally, and two other mothers, of killing their children. Last year he was reinstated, after an appeal to the High Court in London. Mr Justice Collins said he had acted in good faith when he gave evidence at the Clark trial, including his widely publicised claim that the probability of two cot deaths in a family such as the Clarks’ was 73 million to one. Studies suggest a more realistic figure is 64 to one. The judge said he had ‘made one mistake; it was a mistake that was easily and widely made’.

Clearly, Professor Meadow is much respected and has made a distinguished contribution to medicine. But was it really such an innocent mistake? Or was the professor — in common with his paediatric colleagues — avoiding facing up to a reality, unpleasant for professionals who have for years defended a controversial vaccine: that when a tiny baby dies five hours after being injected, a link between the two events might be more probable than that the mother was a murderer?"

Joeker said...

Would this then not imply that the deaths of the children were due to improperly made vaccines which contained the living cells of what they thought were heat-killed bacterias and viruses? What would kill them otherwise?

Just what does Autism have to do with infant deaths in improperly-made vaccines?

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but this here is about an improperly treated bacterium, or microbe, which caused the deaths of two children. Mercury had nothing to do with getting... What were they? Diphtheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Hib, and good old Polio. I don't know which one was the killer, but that's the killer.

Why is Seidel without a heart because two children died from the vaccines? Why is Seidel without a heart because of unproven links to Mercury?

We need to find solid, precise information to know. ND is just as bad, because it's not been proven that Autism is whatever they say it is. That counts here, too.

Yes, the evidence given seems very clear, but we're talking statistics, short studies, and a variety of methods for treatment which are proven to work, but we don't know fully how.

I don't think either you or ND should get to play in the sandbox if you're homework isn't done.

If a vaccine is to blame for the death, and was proven to be so, then let's see some action! If Mercury is to blame for Autism, then let's have some action!

You can insult others here all you want, but it's not going to change medical practice. You need to speak to Medical practitioners for that to come about, and lobby to change/develop alternatives to Thimerosal.

Not going to do much in regards to helping with getting rid of Autism otherwise, huh?

watson said...

James, This heartbreaking book about Sally Clark and her family should be compulsory reading for Kathleen Seidel, and anyone else
who believes in the "experts" and the medical and justice systems.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stolen-Innocence-Sally-Mothers-Justice/dp/0091900700/ref=pd_sxp_f_r/203-6129094-3979939
Stolen Innocence: The Sally Clark Story - A Mother's Fight for Justice by John Batt

There is an updated paperback version but I can't find it on Amazon.

Googlybear said...

I think James' point is that unsafe vaccines can cause death or mental impairment. But Siedel is fighting against a religious organization that is trying to fight for safer vaccines. The Methodist church is not fighting against vaccination, they just want safer ones so there are less side effects seen in children. The Methodist Women's organization even stated in their letter that at this point they would like to see the safer vaccines set aside for populations that are at greater risk for vax damage: babies, children, elderly and pregnant. This would ensure that Siedel's fear that there would not be enough vaccinations is unfounded. Nevertheless, Seidel and the ND followers are fighting against safer vaccinations. They are like rabid dogs mindlessly lashing out.

Also, their attack on the Methodist bishops is very near a hate crime. They are attacking their religious freedom. Religions are allowed to maintain beliefs regarding medical care and those beliefs are protected under religious freedom laws.

Vaccines can cause encephalitis which can cause brain damage. Vaccines can also cause SIDS. The side effects of vaccines can be clearly read in the vaccine package insert. Yet, doctors regularly pretend like there are no side effects. If there are no side effects, then why do the vaccine package inserts list the side effects and why do parents have to sign a liability waiver before their kids can get vaccinated?
--------------------------

As for DPT, we just got my 10 year old dd's titers test back. Apparently she gained no immunity to diptheria or pertussis from her DPT shots. Her doctor doubts she will ever gain immunity from the shot because her body doesn't respond. She gained normal immunity to tetanus. 9 years later, her body is still hyper immune to measles and rubella. My dd has not had a vax in 9 years and still has immunity to what her body gained immunity to. The school district would enforce more vaccines on her, but she doesn't need them. I don't know why titers are not more routinely used before enforcing more jabs on children.

james said...

Joeker,
Why haven't you taken Googly's advice?

Find yourself another blogg where most of the discussion and information doesn't go straight over your head.

You have consistently shown your naivety, inexperience and ignorance of a basic knowledge of the issues on this blogg, with every comment you post.
That wouldn't normally be a big deal if you weren't constantly asking for answers to questions, and then feebly attempting to argue against, and ask for further information, proof and evidence etc, of something you have only just learnt from this blog.
Do you realise you have such a pretentious and contemptuous tone?

Why don't you go away and come back when you're better educated and equipped to form an argument or express an opinion without asking us to educate you on the subject first.
Have you got oppositional defiance disorder along with your Aspergers diagnosis?

james said...

Joeker,

"Why is Seidel without a heart because two children died from the vaccines? Why is Seidel without a heart because of unproven links to Mercury?"

For starters, Joker. Where did I say Seidel hasn't got a heart because of unproven links to Mercury?
On the conrary, she hasn't got a heart because she argues against PROVEN scientific links between Autism and Mercury, but in this instance I said neither.

Don't give me any of your "well you said this, which must mean that, which in turn, proves my point!"
Without twisting anything, quote where I said this.
You haven't been paying attention!
(I got that lovely phrase from you joeker).

Vaccine damage is a FACT. Children do actually die, or are left seriously damaged and disabled as a direct result of vaccines. It happens, it's reported, it's acknowlleged, and families are compensated for this.

http://aboutautism.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_archive.html

From the above link:

"In a year-long investigation of the Vaccine Adverse Reaction Reporting System (VAERS) operated by the Food and Drug Administration, NVIC/DPT analyzed VAERS computer discs used by the FDA to store data on reports of deaths and injuries following DPT vaccination. A total of 54,072 reports of adverse events following vaccination were listed in a 39-month period from July 1990 to November 1993 with 12,504 reports being associated with DPT vaccine, including 471 deaths."Campaign Against Fraudulent Medical Research

(CAFMR)"

That's 12,504 reported vaccine reactions and 471 DEATHS...

Rev Sykes is in the proccess of making a claim for vaccine damage of her child, and Kathleen Seidel is sticking her nose where it doesn't belong, writing rediculous letters to everyone remotely involved with her Church, from the United Methodist Church-Women’s Division, to a total of over sixty individuals and groups involved in the methodist Church.
I call that intimidation with intent to silence Rev. Sykes and her supporters.

"I don't think either you or ND should get to play in the sandbox if you're homework isn't done."

Watch it sonny or I'll make you go all "wonky with indignation" again.

"Just what does Autism have to do with infant deaths in improperly-made vaccines?"

The vaccines weren't "improperly-made"!!!
They were told it wasn't safe, but it didn't stop them using it.

"The pertussis (whooping cough) component, made from whole cells of the microbe, has been especially implicated as a cause of permanent brain damage and death. The evidence was spelled out in an unpublished 150-page report to the Department of Health by Dr Gordon Stewart, emeritus professor of public health at the University of Glasgow and a world authority on vaccine safety."

The vaccines were made from whole cells of the microbe, intentionly.
That's the whole point. The danger of this vaccine was investigated and pointed out by a "world authority on vacine safety", but the government chose to ignore this.

The next time you want to "play in the sandbox" with the rest of us who've 'got a clue', you better make sure you've done you're homework, or you're gonna get sand in your face.

Interverbal said...

James, I would also like to know your answers to the questions Joeker posed. Maybe you could indulge us with some excellent and well thought out answers?

“Have you got oppositional defiance disorder along with your Aspergers diagnosis?”

Do you believe your statement to be a particularly ethical comment to a High School kid?

james said...

"James, I would also like to know your answers to the questions Joeker posed. Maybe you could indulge us with some excellent and well thought out answers?"

Can't you read? I believe I've just answered Joekers questions. If you think for one minute, I'm going to waste my time going over them again with you, you're mistaken. I have some things I need to do between now and Christmas, so I suggest you "indulge" yourself for now.

Interverbal said...

Well since we are having a very interesting exchange, it stands to reason that I can read. However, your answers had not appeared yet, when I wrote my last comment. I am happy you took the time to share with young person.

If you find time James, between now and Christmas of course, it would good to know what science has proven an autism-mercury link. The editor of Pediatrics doesn't seem to think there is any. I can't seem to recall any either.

And I still want to know if your disability comment to a High schooler was appropriate in your mind? How do you justify this, tough love perhaps?

james said...

"If you find time James, between now and Christmas of course, it would good to know what science has proven an autism-mercury link. The editor of Pediatrics doesn't seem to think there is any. I can't seem to recall any either."

I doubt I will find the time, Jonathan, why don't you ask someone with nothing better to do than play games with you.

You really shouldn't concern yourself with any comments I make to "young person" (18 year old Joeker), especially since I am not answerable to you.

Although I'm sure Joeker is quite comfortable expressing himself here on this blog, why don't you invite him on your blog for a while?
He might enjoy some of your views and debates.

Fore Sam said...

Joker, Some of your messages are being deleted because you use this (=P) type of crap. I don't know what it means but the ND's use junk like this all the time. So, use basic English or explain this ND code for the rest of us normal people.

Joeker said...

Uh...
These are called: Emoticons. They're used to express emotions, like =D is happy, or =) is a smile.

They're common enough on the internet, mainly in chat rooms, or anything which communicates through typing.

=P is for being amused, kind of like being a smart-alec. I found it appropriate for the comments I was making.

I'm pretty sure you can find a guide on google, or something... They come in handy, like if you're sad :( or =(, if you're happy :) or =), and even a big smile! =D

I'll stop using them, then, if you'd like.

Interverbal said...

I am not asking you to play games James, I am asking you to defend you statement that science backs up an autism link to mercury. You don't have to actually do it, whatever seems best to you.

"You really shouldn't concern yourself with any comments I make to "young person".

Is this that famous care and compassion the anti-thimerosal crusaders have for all young people?

Joeker is always welcome on my blog, even if dares disagree.

Fore Sam said...

Jonathen, Just visit www.oracknows.com to find all you want to know about mercury.

Anonymous said...

John do you think www.oracknows.com is a good place to go to for a referral for a good doctor?

Fore Sam said...

Anon, Yes, the site has many people who can tell of their experience with doctors.

Joeker said...

Say, James, could you perhaps convince Fore to allow my comments to go through? How can I defend myself, or do anything, if this slimy, gutless, interfering sack of lies continues to block my words from coming through!?

If you continue to block me, I'll have no choice but to enforce what I like to call: Picking a side. Yes, I know all the things about ND that are bad, and wrong, but seriously, if you continue gagging me from saying what I believe, then I'll join ND, and work towards a goal of doing whatever it takes to ensure that their views are heard by as many as possible.

The last thing I want to do is become a supporter of either side. I'd rather suppot the science, but if you continue playing your little games with me, I'll see you on a Blog that's part of the ND webring.

Interverbal said...

Hi For Sam,

The pillar of your organization, Mr. Handley acquired that address to redirect potential to the GR site.

I have already spent a fair bit of time exploring that site as evidenced by my own blog. I feel confident that the ethics of Mr. Handley's actions are equivalent to the level of science presented on your organization's site.

Googlybear said...

Joeker,

I said this a few days ago and I will say it again. This blog is bugging you and is becoming unhealthy. I think you should go back to the life you were enjoying before you stumbled on this site. Joining a cause or doing anything you are unsure of as a reaction against someone is usually a bad idea. It is called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Take a few days away, clear your head and then see if you really want to bother with this blog. I have had to walk away from debate forums and such before. It was hard as heck at the time, but after a week I forgot all about why the argument was important anyway. Go enjoy the end of your senior year. Be a kid. It is almost over and you will never get to do it again.

watson said...

How about the level of science in this study, Jonathon?

1: J Toxicol Environ Health A. 2007 Jun;70(12):1046-51.
Mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism versus controls.
Adams JB, Romdalvik J, Ramanujam VM, Legator MS.

This study determined the level of mercury, lead, and zinc in baby teeth of children with autism spectrum disorder (n = 15, age 6.1 +/- 2.2 yr) and typically developing children (n = 11, age = 7 +/- 1.7 yr). Children with autism had significantly (2.1-fold) higher levels of mercury but similar levels of lead and similar levels of zinc. Children with autism also had significantly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 12 mo of life, and possibly higher usage of oral antibiotics during their first 36 mo of life. Baby teeth are a good measure of cumulative exposure to toxic metals during fetal development and early infancy, so this study suggests that children with autism had a higher body burden of mercury during fetal/infant development. Antibiotic use is known to almost completely inhibit excretion of mercury in rats due to alteration of gut flora. Thus, higher use of oral antibiotics in the children with autism may have reduced their ability to excrete mercury, and hence may partially explain the higher level in baby teeth. Higher usage of oral antibiotics in infancy may also partially explain the high incidence of chronic gastrointestinal problems in individuals with autism.

PMID: 17497416 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Anonymous said...

Watson that's a great study. As all of us here know if pharma or anyone else in govt wanted to scientifically prove vaccines caused autism they very well could. It would devastate them in their wallets so they put minor $$$ into discrediting anyone who speaks out for the truth. It's really pretty simple. And hopefully they will eventually burn in hell for all of eternity.

Interverbal said...

Hi Watson,

I have already seen this one, but thank you for rising to the occasion.

You ask me about the level of science in this study, so it seems appropriate to make an answer.

Do’C has already done an admirable takedown of this study
http://www.autismstreet.org/weblog/?p=119
I agree with his assessment.

My favorite part by far is when the authors claim that children with autism are exposed to more anti-biotics. They reference a 20 year old study with a small sample size (<30) based on parental survey and a DAN! conference presentation whose methods are not refereed or transparent. And these “studies” contradict a much more recent and considerably larger study by Rosen et al. (2007) which showed that if anything, children with autism are slightly less likely to have infections compared to their typically developing peers.

And is it just me, or did the anonymous person above me seem kind of excited about people potentially being tortured for all eternity?

james said...

Jonathan,

""You really shouldn't concern yourself with any comments I make to "young person".

Is this that famous care and compassion the anti-thimerosal crusaders have for all young people?"

No, it's the "care and compassion" you showed for all young people in your comment:

"However, your answers had not appeared yet, when I wrote my last comment. I am happy you took the time to share with young person."

I was quoting you when I said:

"You really shouldn't concern yourself with any comments I make to "young person" (18 year old Joeker), especially since I am not answerable to you."

Interverbal said...

Thanks James, but I understood what your comment was refeering to, but that is no answer to the ethics of your comment.

james said...

Jonathan,

Feel free to comment on my "ethics" and lack of care and compassion shown to Joeker.
As Joeker would say himself.
"You haven't been paying attention!"

Is this the kind of compassion you're looking for?

"james said...
Joeker
You said,
"Everything that makes up who I am comes from my Autism. I am afraid, desperately, of eventually being forced to be "cured," to lose all that I am, and become a stranger to myself."

Don't worry, this will never happen. Nobody is ever going to force a cure on you. Try to put this out of your mind, if you can."

Or this:

"james said...
Joeker,
It's obvious from your last comment that you cannot cope with any criticism. You're not making much sense and seem to have gone to pieces. It would be cruel of me to respond to you any further.
Please get yourself some help."

Since Joeker then goes on to insult, patronize, criticize, dictate and make accusations against those that show him compassion, then he should expect some retaliation in their defence.

phil said...

I can't resist this!

Some of your messages are being deleted because you use this (=P) type of crap. I don't know what it means but the ND's use junk like this all the time.

Earth to Best - EVERYONE on the Net does this sort of thing! It's not exclusive to ASD's! Anyway, we don't like it until we have it explained to us, so you just exposed yourself as one of us AGAIN!

Interverbal said...

I am not too sure how you determined that I haven't been paying attention to your exchange. Is it possible you have made an assumption here?

As to your comment. I don't believe it is standard practice in schools or... anywhere to have a teenager become insulting to a older and wiser person and have that person respond with insults of their own.

Joeker said...

Googly: Should I cut off my nose to spite my face, I'll wear my scars with pride. I'll take the time to present my case, whatever I decide.

I'm grateful that you're concerned, but I just can't go back to being blissfully ignorant. I also can't leave my words to be twisted, my opinions to be mocked, and my rights to be crushed, censored by Fore because I refuse to take any sides.

I'm done with being a kid. Have been done for years. I can't say I miss it much. What I do now is much more satisfying. Writing, reading, and my hobbies.

Watson: I don't believe Autism is caused by Mercury, but the study thus, in my opinion, warrants further research, while actions are being made to replace Thimerosal.

James: Same old material. I'm getting a little tired of you quoting me, especially the same line, over and over again.

By the way, just what right do you have to not be accountable for your own words? Are you special, and immune to being held to your own words?

We have to go over this again!?
You failed to realize that Fore had me classified as unable to have any choice in my own life, and that would mean I wouldn't be able to avoid being forced, with no self-governance or control.
Did you take the time to examine the logical loophole within Fore's statements? Being incapable of making my own choices, what choice would I have in beig "cured?"

You call what you were saying to me to be compassionate? I found it to be, alternately: patronizing, simple, sarcastic, and, on occasion, asinine.

Oh, and I felt that it was time I gave back some of what I was getting: insults, patronization, criticism, dictations of who I am, and accusations.

I only use what's been thrown at me. Oh, yes, generalizations! I nearly forgot.
Uh, you must be some... self-important... college student... who feels that anyone with Autism... is a person who wants pity.

Wondering when you'll get some new quotes,
~Joeker

watson said...

Anonymous said...
Watson that's a great study. As all of us here know if pharma or anyone else in govt wanted to scientifically prove vaccines caused autism they very well could. It would devastate them in their wallets so they put minor $$$ into discrediting anyone who speaks out for the truth. It's really pretty simple.

Anon, You are right, without a shadow of doubt.

And hopefully they will eventually burn in hell for all of eternity.

Well, they sure won't be punished in this life. I wonder what fate Dante would have imagined for them? Being continuously vaccinated by a Nurse Ratched perhaps, or having to remain forever in the company of Amanda Baggs, and forced at pitchfork point to read everything she has ever written about herself.. again... and again... and again... and...

watson said...

Jonathan, So DoC criticized the journal's editor, the lead researcher and the referenced studies. I don't see how any of that can be relevant to the study's design or the science of the study. The bottom line is that they found more than twice the level of mercury in the baby teeth of ASD children than in controls.

I think there's a big difference between studying children in the flesh, and looking at figures from a medical insurer. Have you actually read the CDC-funded Rosen epidemiological study, particularly the paragraph on its limitations?

Does ND scrutinize widely-publicized studies linking autism to TV watching, or Father's Age? Or the government-funded ones, such as the 'Mercury is Good for Your Children' studies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20IhxCzeuDU

"Mercury containing vaccines may help not harm kids according to two new studies in the Journal of Pediatrics. There have been widespread concerns that mercury-based preservatives in vaccines might impair the neurological development of children. These new studies suggest that the opposite that the preservatives may actually be associated with improved behaviour and mental performance."

Now, who in their right mind would believe that? But it's great propaganda.

Fore Sam said...

Phil, No, everyone on the net does not use this adolescent code. Weirdos who spend all their time on the net may use it but normal people just talk normally. Of course, an idiot who thinks wrestling is real probably assumes this is normal behavior.
Phil, You are one of the dumbest people on the face of the earth. You're too stupid to realize that there is help available for your Asperger's. It might even give you a few precious IQ points if you were to try to cure yourself. Please get some help.

Fore Sam said...

Jonathan, The teenager is 18, therefore, an adult. He doesn't know his place and chooses to argue with those who he could learn from if he had a brain in his head. Having his moronic opinions exposed for what they are may give him cause to reflect upon the error of his ways and he may eventually learn how to listen.
The same applies to you.

james said...

John,
Neither Jonathan nor Joeker are interested in "listening", only arguing.
Both would be lost if they had to go a day without arguing, and I suspect that someone ignoring them would drive them nuts.
Joeker is a complete drama queen and too self absorbed to learn anything.
He has oppositional defiant disorder (ODD), and people with ODD "seldom see their conflicts with others as their own fault; they justify their oppositional behaviour by claiming that unreasonable demands are being placed on them".

And on the subject of not agreeing with an enforced cure, I think I would make an exception in Joekers case.

Fore Sam said...

James, I'm sure we know Joeker by another name. He's just a basic ND nitwit trying to make his presense here credible. As with all ND nitwits, he isn't competent to judge whether he needs a cure or not. So, for the sake of an innocent general public, we should cure him in case he explodes a la Cho due to all that bullying he endured.

james said...

He's certainly a loose cannon....

Interverbal said...

Watson,

My problem, beyond the seeming incongruence between Adams, Holmes, and Bradstreet. Is the author’s attaching the increased use of anti-biotics to children with autism.

“I think there's a big difference between studying children in the flesh, and looking at figures from a medical insurer.”

The 20 year old study just used survey data, which is weak even for a descriptive study. The other one was a DAN! presentation and not transparent or subjected to peer review.

The medical insurer data should provide an extremely accurate picture of the amount and type of antibiotics given. I see no reason to accept your criticism that because these are aggregate data they are invalid. Perhaps you can provide a reason?

“Have you actually read the CDC-funded Rosen epidemiological study, particularly the paragraph on its limitations?”

I have a great deal of autism science, and will no doubt read a great deal more. As to the Rosen article, I read it the day it came out, as I was informed about it ahead of time.

“Does ND scrutinize widely-publicized studies linking autism to TV watching, or Father's Age?”

ND is a philosophy, it can not scrutinize anything. As to NDs themselves, I can not speak for everyone who subscribes to this philosophy. However, I did criticize the TV study and so did other autism hub bloggers. I have not criticized the dad’s age study and when I read it, I did not observe many errors in it. However, I am still suspicious of it, and will wait for more research before I offer a comment. Others took a different stance, you can peruse the hub blogs to find some variety of answers on that one.

“Or the government-funded ones, such as the 'Mercury is Good for Your Children' studies?”

I acknowledge the validity of the criticism of the Danish studies. Not so the Verstraeten study, I find many of the criticisms of that study, to be frivolous and others to be addressed by Verstraeten himself in a letter to editor of Pediatrics. I have compiled a list some time ago, of studies that I have read and that meet certain standards of quality below”

http://interverbal.blogspot.com
/2006/09/listing-of-articles-
which-do-not.html

“Now, who in their right mind would believe that? But it's great propaganda.”

If you already claim to know what the answer is and will deny any contradictory evidence, then you have ceased to be scientific. Real scientists don’t know the answer ahead of time. And this is as true for the Verstraetens of the world as it is for you and I.

Interverbal said...

Mr. Best

Joeker is an adult, but he is still a teenager and still in High School. I suspect that
He is much younger than you or James. It is still your obligation to be a model to him, and to show him the higher road. You can fulfill that obligation or not, as you see best, Mr. Best.

“Having his moronic opinions exposed for what they are may give him cause to reflect upon the error of his ways and he may eventually learn how to listen.”

A powerful argument, I am surprised that in the face of such reasoning, Joker has maintained his stance. However, is it possible that you have made an error? Is it possible that you have confused “listening” and “agreeing”?

“The same applies to you.”

Does it?

Anonymous said...

I have a challenge for Googlybear, James, Watson, and ForeSam. Let's do a W2 and tax return challenge. As an autistic person, I'll be willing to open my tax return against the above individuals and then we'll see who comes out on top. Does it pay to be NT? or can Autistic people surpass NT's on the wage and earnings scale? Care to compete? I'll set you all up with free websites to display your earnings vs. mine.

Fore Sam said...

Jonathan, I've told you before that you are a naive young man who has fallen in with bad companions. You waste your time arguing against the fact that mercury caused the autism epidemic.
Aren't you a teacher? You would be more useful to those kids by learning from people like me how to help rid them of the mercury that impedes their learning. Teachers can not cure mercury poisoning. You would be very well served to shut up and listen to those of us who actually help autistic children instead of making a jackass out of yourself hanging around with Neuronitwits.

Fore Sam said...

Anon, My income is my business. I don't care how much you earn. You're probably some nitwit who works for the IRS and will just show us someone else's return anyhow.
You want to compete at something? How about a game of golf? Arm wrestling? Target shooting? You know, something we can do in person so you can't lie about it and hide in anonymity.

Interverbal said...

Yes, Mr.Best, you have taken several opportunities to share with me what you think I am. However, you have never been able to provide a reason to take that criticism seriously.

Also, we have both taken several opportunities, to comment on each others blogs. I have read your articles carefully and fully. I hope you have done the same for mine.

So, you see, I have listened to you. But listening to you and hearing your side of the debate, did not lead me to agree with you.

"The mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain a position without adopting it"
-Plato

When you are able to provide research based evidence that can stand up to scruntiny, or even just a solid argument, I will be happy to reconsider my positions.

Thank you for your time.

Fore Sam said...

Jonathan, Here is all the research you need. I gave my autistic son DMSA and ALA to remove the mercury. He began to improve and continues to improve. Thousands of other parents have done the same thing. That's all that matters, don't you agree?
All the other discussion about thimerosal is simply a ploy by the drug industry to deflect blame onto anything besides thimerosal. Intelligent people realize this and help their kids in spite of all this bullshit. You have opted for bullshit versus helping children. You can kindly shove your idiotic arguments up your ass while I and all other respectable parents help our kids.

Dave Seidel said...

Hey there John, just wanted to thank you for the additional traffic. I don't usually pay any attention to your blog, but I've noticed lately that more people are clicking through to the neurodiversity.com site from here. Not that we need the assistance, since the traffic continues to grow every month, but every little bit helps. And even better, we get all this publicity for free. So keep it up, buddy.

Fore Sam said...

Dave, That's OK. The people who read here don't believe what a jackass your wife is so I guess they have to see for themselves. She never disappoints in demonstrating the insanity of Neurodiversity.

Interverbal said...

"That's all that matters, don't you agree?"

No, I am afraid I don't. What you described isn't research.

Your methods don't answer the question of whether or not chelation helps at all.

To me, its as ethically bad, to not care if something is really true so long as it appears to be true, as it is to not care how one gets one's money, so long as one has it.

This will be my last post for a while Mr. Best, unless you or one of your friends here would like to further speak with me.

Anonymous said...

"I'm afraid I don't quite get why you think I'm interested in chatting about my sexuality. It's highly personal and private, eh?"
Joeker

50 percent of Asperger's marriages are sexless because the aspie partner does not like sex. That is according to experts like Tony Attwood.

18 years old and aspie, Joker, you don't have a sex life or sexuality or anything resembling it. Most aspie men never have a date until they are in their 40s. They are the 40 year old virgins who never left home.

That is why you have time to write such long posts.

Anonymous said...

Do you notice how many famous or brilliant people have been claimed by neurodiversity as having been autistic? No proof, of course

Albert Einstein, Jane Austen etx, etc.

I have a friend who is gay and she insists all those same people are in fact closet gays.

Funny that, isn't it.

Fore Sam said...

Jonathan, You don't agree that helping disabled children is the only thing that matters?!!!
That means your opinion is clearly wrong!!! All of the science is immaterial if none of it can help disabled children.
My methods, and those used by thousands of other sane parents do answer the question of whether it helps or not. That's why we discuss it with each other to help our kids. I have not seen one damn thing from Neurodiversity that helps any disabled child. All we see out of you deuschbags is lots of bullshit arguing against scientists who help disabled children. You're associated with some very sick people, Jonathan.

Anonymous said...

Dave Seidel said:

"...I've noticed lately that more people are clicking through to the neurodiversity.com site from here. Not that we need the assistance, since the traffic continues to grow every month, but every little bit helps. And even better, we get all this publicity for free..."

Yeah, well,
Barnum and Bailey and the Ringling Bros did quite well selling tickets to theirs, and here you are giving your's away for free?

I wouldn't exactly confuse rubbernecking with support, but eh,
"Goooood jobbbbb Daaaaaavid"

Googlybear said...

Anonymous,

What would that prove. Nothing. It's ancedotal. You have to look at the populations on a whole. What percentage of people with autism are considered disabled enough by their neurodiverse condition to warrant ssi income vs. NT people. We would have to remove subjects from both sides that are disabled by extranous things like spinal cord paralysis or multiple sclerosis.

You are being silly, with your who has the bigger dick type contest. This is the internet, anyone can be lying. Besides, why the hell would I post my personal information with all the identity fraud out there to prove a point to an anonymous poster on a blog?

Googlybear said...

Seidel,

Visiting your site was the equivalent of gawking at a huge accident on the freeway. Your wife is a piece of shit. My condolences.

watson said...

Interverbal said...
My problem, beyond the seeming incongruence between Adams, Holmes, and Bradstreet. Is the author’s attaching the increased use of anti-biotics to children with autism.

Jonathan, Adams actually says that children with autism had "possibly higher usage of oral antibiotics, during the first 36 months of life", and higher usage of antibiotics in infancy "may" have reduced their ability to excrete mercury. He is hypothesizing about the cause of the higher level of mercury in the baby teeth of ASD children, he's not saying it is the cause, only that it might be.

That does not alter the fact that Adams found more mercury in the baby teeth of ASD children.

What would be your explanation?

ND is a philosophy, it can not scrutinize anything.

I didn't realise you engaged in put downs, Jonathan. I thought giving human attributes to an idea, an animal or an inanimate object was called personification, but it really doesn't matter, it's totally irrelevant to the topic we're discussing.

I have a great deal of autism science, and will no doubt read a great deal more. As to the Rosen article, I read it the day it came out, as I was informed about it ahead of time.

Surely you're not trying to impress me, Jonathan. The question was:

“Have you actually read the CDC-funded Rosen epidemiological study, particularly the paragraph on its limitations?”

I: The medical insurer data should provide an extremely accurate picture of the amount and type of antibiotics given. I see no reason to accept your criticism that because these are aggregate data they are invalid. Perhaps you can provide a reason?

I think you should read the study again. Here's one of the limitations:

"- ASD diagnoses were not validated by a standardized clinical assessment. (A child psychiatrist determined which children met the criteria for ASD by looking at medical charts and only "7% were suspected to have ASD based on the DSM-4".)"

Instead of comparing the medical charts of sick children with the medical charts of sick children with ASD, I'd like to see a study comparing the health of children with ASD and healthy children who have never seen a doctor, and have never had vaccines or antibiotics. Wouldn't you agree that the assumption is that all typically-developing children have infections that need treating with antibiotics?

I have not criticized the dad’s age study and when I read it, I did not observe many errors in it. However, I am still suspicious of it, and will wait for more research before I offer a comment. Others took a different stance, you can peruse the hub blogs to find some variety of answers on that one.

I don't see why you would be suspicious of the study itself. It's the conclusion that everyone got to hear about that's suspicious. How can a study of children born to Jewish fathers in Israel in the 80s possibly be of relevance to the rest of the world?

They say that they won't study the unvaccinated Amish who have an almost zero rate of autism, because they are genetically different, so why should a study of Jewish children in Israel be any more relevant?


W“Now, who in their right mind would believe that (Mercury is Good for Children)? But it's great propaganda.” I: If you already claim to know what the answer is and will deny any contradictory evidence, then you have ceased to be scientific. Real scientists don’t know the answer ahead of time. And this is as true for the Verstraetens of the world as it is for you and I.

Did the studies actually conclude that mercury improves behaviour and enhances brain function or was that just spin for public consumption?

Do you consider epidemiology to be real science?

Joeker said...

Funny thing, Anon. Ted Bundy had Aspergers, didn't you know? Cho here was also Autistic.

Wow, funny how they're perfectly fine with calling all these people who were bad Autistic, but not any of those like Einstein.

Did you know one of the speculations is that one of Hitler's top men, who was dispatched in a plane to britain, whom crashlanded in North Britain and was subsequently arrested, was Autistic? I haven't found the supporting link, though.

It's like having your cake, and eating it too. Accuse the possible Autistics who were bad people of being Autistic, and defend the regularity of the good people who did the good things.

Ooh, except Einstein did invent that bomb...

Fore Sam said...

Cho had an autism diagnosis, Einstein did not. Don't know about Bundy.

Interverbal said...

Hi Watson,

Yes, I understand that Adams et al. is only proposing their antibiotic idea as a theory, however, I am using more recent research to argue against that theory. My statement as given still stands.

“What would be your explanation?”

I have none. It may well be that the authors have found an interesting (perhaps even telling) finding. Or it could be a problem in their methodology. However, Soden et al. (2007) just came out. The inevitable dueling analyses of this research should hit the blogopshere in the near future. The authors used both autistic and non-autistics. The use both provoked and non-provoked chelation tests. The study abstract states:

“In the absence a proven novel mode of heavy metal toxicity, the proportion of autistic participants in this study whose DMSA provoked excretion results demonstrate an excess chelatable body burden of As, Cd, Pb, or Hg is zero.”

“I didn't realise you engaged in put downs, Jonathan. I thought giving human attributes to an idea, an animal or an inanimate object was called personification”.

It was not a put down, it was me taking issue with your reference to NDs as if they are a monolithic group, they are not. However, my previous statement did not do an adequate job of explaining this, which makes it seem trite, and for that, I apologize.

“Surely you're not trying to impress me, Jonathan.”

Rest assured that I am not. I simply wanted to tell you, that I firmly believe in actually reading what one quotes from. I practice what I preach.

"ASD diagnoses were not validated by a standardized clinical assessment. (A child psychiatrist determined which children met the criteria for ASD by looking at medical charts and only "7% were suspected to have ASD based on the DSM-4".)"

Noted, I retract my earlier statement until I can re-read the article.

“Instead of comparing the medical charts of sick children with the medical charts of sick children with ASD, I'd like to see a study comparing the health of children with ASD and healthy children who have never seen a doctor, and have never had vaccines or antibiotics.”

That study sounds already biased because it may favor exceptionally healthy children without an ASD. The study I would suggest would be randomized selection of children with and without ASD regardless of health.

“Wouldn't you agree that the assumption is that all typically-developing children have infections that need treating with antibiotics?’

Not at all. In fact the case with doctors at the moment seems to be to very carefully only assign antibiotics in the case of bacterial infection.

“I don't see why you would be suspicious of the study itself.”

Then I will be happy to clarify. I am suspicious of the study itself, because it is correlative in nature and because, there is very little science pointing in this direction. Correlative studies are not the strongest design, and that alone makes me a little wary.

“How can a study of children born to Jewish fathers in Israel in the 80s possibly be of relevance to the rest of the world?”

Do you find that fact that these are Jewish fathers in Israel to be a factor here? Also, the data were older, the analysis and analysis methods were contemporary. Even if you were to argue that the 80s children were different enough from the 90s and 00s in terms of what they were exposed to, the finding would still be intact so long as one only spoke of the 80s kids.

“They say that they won't study the unvaccinated Amish who have an almost zero rate of autism, because they are genetically different, so why should a study of Jewish children in Israel be any more relevant?”

Unfortunately, no one has shown that the Amish have a smaller rate of Autism. A journalist asked around a bit, but he did not engage in any sort of actual validation. Moreover, we know the Amish do have at least some autism and that it seems to be related to seizure activity and genetic anomalies as shown in Strauss et al. (2006).

Further, old Order Amish and Mennonites are quite famous for having a variety of distinct genetic problems. Another group whom this is true for is the Hasidic Jews, but not so much Jews in general. Moreover, a study was done of Inuits in Northern Quebec who have full health care and a genetically isolated population, but do not have a single case of autism as shown in a poster presentation by Fombonne et al. (2006).

“Did the studies actually conclude that mercury improves behaviour and enhances brain function or was that just spin for public consumption?”

If one reads the Verstraeten study itself, the conclusions are slightly against the mercury hypothesis. The press releases from other organizations were stronger in how they were worded. However, it was the Danish studies that were touted as offering proof of an isolative effect of thimerosal.

I don’t think thimerosal has any effect on autism either positive or negative, but if one will hold a correlative study as a bastion of truth in the first place, then it seems appropriate to make such a statement if warranted by the data.

“Do you consider epidemiology to be real science?”

Absolutely, even the famous philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend, who took an anarchistic view of science, acknowledged that epidemiology was scientific. He just wanted it to put less emphasis on strict controls and empiricism and become more theory oriented. On the other hand I want there to be more empiricism and even more careful controls in epidemiology.

Joeker said...

It's been tossed about for a while on the site that had it. I'm not sure where the site was, this was back several months ago, and I wanted to forget about it.

Anyways, my point is that it's hypocritical of anti-ND groups and others to disclaim all the speculation about historical figures who may have had Autism and did positive things, and then speculate on which historical figures had Autism and committed atrocities and crimes.

In their opinions, Isaac Newton wasn't Autistic, but Blackbeard sure was. Einstein wasn't, but a Nazi cabinet member was.
It's terribly hypocritical of them.

I say if there were bad people in history who were Autistic, then so be it. And if there were good people in history who were Autistic, okay then.

The subject should either be neutrally explored, or dropped entirely. Perhaps we could have ND look for the "bad" Autistics of history, and those on the opposite end look for "good" Autistics of history?
It would certainly be better than sitting around blogging at each other, no?

phil said...

Phil, You are one of the dumbest people on the face of the earth. You're too stupid to realize that there is help available for your Asperger's. It might even give you a few precious IQ points if you were to try to cure yourself. Please get some help.

Best, I don't need to sort of help you are advocating - because it's a placebo. Pure and simple. As for my IQ it's already higher than yours, so why should I? Anyway - if anyone is stupid it's you. The truly sane people who know agree with me. You are a meglomaniac who needs to be restrained PDQ!

And diagnosed with an ASD - because you are definitely one of us, Best! Whether you like it or not! And just how much is your own chelating doing for you, huh? One big fat GOOSE EGG! And all it did for your son was reduce the sensory overload and that's all. He's Autistic for life - all you've done at best is replace LFA with HFA, and that's all you'll ever get because ASD's can NOT be cured.

Full stop!

(And I'll bet you'll come back with more heinous rhetoric like you usually do - I'll put this on my Wiki just in case you don't have the guts to let this 100 percent accurate post through!)

Fore Sam said...

Phil, I haven't said what my IQ is. It's about double yours.
Trying to help you is like trying to help a drunk out of the gutter. You're too screwed up to be helped. Someday, you'll be rounded up, locked up and cured for your own good. We can't have crazy people like you running loose.

Googlybear said...

Phil,

If John's son went from LFA to HFA, don't you think that would still be an improvement? ND is even against this kind of partial recovery. If John was an ND parent, his kid would be LFA for life and at the mercy of whatever living arrangments the gov't deemed appropriate when John was too old or deceased to advocate for his son. At least an HFA or Aspie has control over their lives, at least the ones patroling the net.

Joeker said...

I have to say, if the Chelation works, and is helping LFs become better, then I have no qualms about it being used.
It's safe? Good. It's helping? Good. I see no problems.

I can hardly fathom why Phil is so opposed to this stuff. I don't see how helping LFs to become HFs is a bad thing.

Oh, and phil, here's a tip: Try very hard not to use absolutes. There is always room for doubt.

Fore: A little over the top in my opinion, but for his taunting and personal remarks, I think I'm just being a little conservative.

Googly: Concurred. That's really pretty much all I can say.

Phil: Assigning moral values and opinions to others isn't too smart. Same to making assumptions of what others will say, based upon these presumed factors.
And a doubled IQ, based upon the average(though Fore seems above this) IQ, would mean you'd have to have an IQ of 160 to be double Fore's IQ, now wouldn't it? I find that a bit hard to believe.

phil said...

Phil, I haven't said what my IQ is. It's about double yours.

Your IQ is 262??? Oh yeah right! Next joke!

Someday, you'll be rounded up, locked up and cured for your own good. We can't have crazy people like you running loose.

You are absolutely right - we can't have crazy people running loose. That means you, meglomaniac! You support the same ideal as Hitler did with the Jews - kill all ASD's if they won't be chelated. Eugenics. It's been said by others as well as me time and time again - YOU ARE ONE OF US!!! In spite of the chelation, YOU ARE ON THE SPECTRUM! And you can't do any more about that than you can about your son!

Googlybear, curebies like Best want a cure. That means no ASD at all - NT. That is NOT POSSIBLE. The reason a LFA can become a HFA is because of the reduction of the sensory overload. That's all LFA is - constant sensory overload. There are many ways to reduce it, but it depends on what the cause is. In Sam's case, it was an excess of heavy metal in his intestines - a physical problem that had nothing to do with mercury, but of course chelation cleared it. The pain was the sensory overload.

It doesn't guarantee it of course, but the bottom line is that the person remains on the spectrum for life.

I doubt you understand much about ASD's any more than Best does. I also doubt that the so called ND cult supports the view that LFA's should be left alone - except the extremists maybe who I have no more time for that I have for Best. But that's only because they've taken the "no cure" message too far.

Joeker - unfortunately when you are dealing with Best, you have to deal in absolutes - because he only works in absolutes himself. I know what you are trying to do, but I told you before and I'll say it again - Best won't listen.

That's all from me. All future commentary will be on my Wiki.

Fore Sam said...

Phil, Why would anyone listen to a numbskull like you? Wrestling fans are morons. You can't be cured of being a moron but you can get rid of your autism.
Are you calling every parent who has already cured their child a liar? Yup, put your reply on your site so nobody can comment, coward.
I'm not on any spectrum, Phil. I chelated myself in case I have some mercury in me that could cause Alzheimer's.

Googlybear said...

What is a wiki?

I find people who throw around their IQ to be odd. My half brother has a 160 IQ, and is a complete waste of air. His life accomplishments: beating his wife and a failed garage band. I've worked with people who have a 50 IQ who do better than this. I have more respect for a person's actual accomplishments, motivation and innovation than a test score.

There are many ways to reduce it, but it depends on what the cause is. In Sam's case, it was an excess of heavy metal in his intestines - a physical problem that had nothing to do with mercury, but of course chelation cleared it. The pain was the sensory overload.

I don't follow your logic. Sam's problem was an excess of heavy metals but you don't support chelation, even though you admit it helped him. And if you know the excess metals, ie: mercury, et al., were causing the problem then how can you say it wasn't the mercury (a heavy metal) causing the problem? For that matter, if heavy metal in the gut is the cause of sensory overload in some cases, as you expressed, then shouldn't ND be supporting the use of chelation?

And I have said this before and I will say it again. I do not think that every person can come off the spectrum with treatment. Some do and some do not. I think the most important thing is for a person to reach the optimum functioning and health possible for them. What we are seeking in "recovery" is for my dd to be able to function independantly in adulthood, not be plaqued by excessive sensory problems, better communication and have a normal attention span; among other things. If she reovers to the ponit of losing her diagnosis, then that is the way it goes. If she always has the diagnosis of ASD, then life goes on. I don't obsess about every tantrum, stim, off day or odd behavior. She's a kid.

Joeker said...

Phil: Phil, take a Chill Pill. Rounding up to force a cure isn't summary executions in planning.

Also, Fore here is becoming, in my opinion, less inclined to making statements that apply as a whole to all, the sweeping generalizations, and absolutes. He can understand well, because of the disgust he feels when Baggs puts words into his son's mouth.

By the way, I feel the same way towards comment moderation by you that I feel towards comment moderation by Fore. It's still blocking opposing viewpoints, and the only thing I'd block would be highly offensive language, used in excess. Or those daft chain comments. I hate those! They're so annoying...

Googly: I agree. Not to mention, it's fair idiotic to argue IQ sizes. What's it matter who has the bigger IQ? It's not the size of it that counts, but what you do with it.

Superb point on Chelation.

Independence is the goal, and once that's attained, it hardly matters that you still have what's seen as quirks or oddities by society if you can take care of your own affairs.

There are still many years before Googlybear jr. has to live by herself, no? Much time, and much to happen.

Open: Everyone has opinions, and not all of them coincide as well as one can hope. Emotions run high, and so do tempers. Few problems are solved by shouting matches.

But to defy this a little...

Phil! Come back here and post like a man!

Fore Sam said...

Joeker, I think it would do Phil some good if he was caught and cured. I'll be waiting to hear from some people in Australia who may want to help him.

Joeker said...

Googly: Ah, a Wiki is a short name for a wikipedia page.

You can find the main site by google searching for: wikipedia

It's an online encyclopedia of sorts.

Googlybear said...

LOL! Oh, I know what Wikipedia is. I didn't realize people had Wiki pages. Is Phil something that requires an encyclopedic definition?

I wonder why ol' Phil hasn't come back to discuss my rebuttal on his chelation comments.

Fore Sam said...

Googly, Phil is following the Neuroinsane guidelines of hiding in the safety of his own blog that doesn't allow comments so he can pretend he is not screwed up beyond belief with nobody to slap him into reality.

Fore Sam said...

Phil, You continue to call all parents of cured children liars. This makes you, without a doubt, the dumbest person on the planet. Your last comment is too stupid to publish. If I let it go through, I might be accused of moron abuse by allowing you to make a bigger fool out of yourself than you have already done.

Fore Sam said...

http://philsworld.wiki-site.com/index.php/Foresam_Updates_2
This is Phil's site. Hey Phil, I deleted both of your comments because you keep insulting sane people. A screwball like yourself needs to learn when to shut up.
I don't see gray areas when it comes to neuroinsanity because there aren't any. You're all loopy. Everything any of you say is insane. You're all too dumb to be reasoned with.
BTW Phil, I do have some friends in Australia. Maybe one of them will look you up just to let me know if you're as much of a nut case in person as you are on the internet.

Joeker said...

Uh... did you mistake me for Phil, or are you simply blocking me because you feel that it's not at all similar?

"Phil is following the Neuroinsane guidelines of hiding in the safety of his own blog that doesn't allow comments so he can pretend he is not screwed up beyond belief with nobody to slap him into reality."

You seem to follow a guideline very similar. How many comments do you block? How does your barring of Anons who don't support you, and your acceptance of Anons who support you, how is that any different from Phil?

You're both a pair of childish prats having a fight, and you're both liars, hypocrites, and scum.

You both taunt and mock, and block any response. You both present a narrow view, and take the lazy path, and spend your time insulting those who don't agree, rather than actually go out and try to make a difference.

Everything has gray areas. You can't se it because you're too extreme in this, too devoted to your cause. You take every person who does not agree with you, and group them together, assigning them the values they believe, the words they say, what they do, and you refuse to let any break the mold you put them into.

I am NOT, and this will be the last damn time I say it, a fucking Neurodiverse! You can spew your crap all you want, but I'll be dead and buried under CONCRETE before I let YOU tell me who and what I am! I'm not ND. I'm not HA. I'm not CAN, DAN, PAN, the politicians, the doctors, the scientific community. I'm not Seidel, Baggs, Leitch, Phil, Diva, Synthesete, Nemiz, or whoever you want me to be. You act high and mighty, and talk patronizingly to me, and allow me not a response to you saying, "Oh, look at the poor little brain damaged boy who cannot speak for himself, who's an adult only when it's convenient for me to smear him, and a child when I want to keep him shut up. Someone should cure him."

I'm not one prone to outbursts, but you've been pushing the fucking line for far too long, and I am not going to stand for your shit any more.

No more mincing words. No more pretty talk. No more attempts to convince you. One goal now.

Shut you down. Shut you up.
Time to do things you were going to talk about forever, but never commit to. The things that will solve autism. The things you're too scared or preoccupied to do.

All in, bitch.
~Joeker

Fore Sam said...

Joeker, Did someone forget to take their med's today?

Joeker said...

(Ah, very witty, yet predictable. At least you got some new material.) Nope. I'm just done with sitting around and listening to you whine about ND, making personal remarks about people you never meet in person, and blathering on about how Thimerosal is the bad thing that causes Autism, but never doing anything to try to stop what you call madness, the poisoning of babies by the doctors, with Thimerosal.

It's clear to me here that you'll simply just insult those whose opinions differ until your fingers bleed and the keyboard wears down, and never actually have to do anything to make a real difference.

I at least want to get done what you're bitching about being held back. The best way to shut someone up is to prove them wrong with irrefutable evidence. Remove Thimerosal, give it several years... We'll see. I don't know which side will be right. If no changes happen, then the Mercury groups will need a new theory to support. And if you're right, then I have no qualms about supporting the correct cause, though I would still feel that your personal attacks on others are simply idiotic. In essence, this will show either Mercury as the cause, or Mercury isn't the cause. Maybe it's 50/50? You're a betting man. Would you take this bet at these odds?

What is the best way to go about proving someone wrong, in the case of a huge and difficult task?

Recruit them. It'd be like a game of poker. Make the bets, hit a good hand, throw in the cards for an all in. They feel they have a sure bet, and so do you. All they need to do is take the gamble.

As I said before;
All in.

~Joeker

Russel V. Mancino said...

Who is Kathleen Seidel and why she should not be taken seriously.

Ms. Seidel's autobiogrgrphical description can be found on her website Neurodiversity.com which states

" My name is Kathleen, and I live in northern New England. I've been married to my companion Dave for almost twenty-four years now; we're the parents of two teenagers, one with an autistic spectrum diagnosis, and also have other family members on the spectrum.

My goal in developing this website is to increase goodwill and compassion in the world, and to help reduce suffering. I seek to help reduce the suffering of autistic children and adults, who often face extraordinary challenges in many domains of life, challenges made more difficult by others' unrealistic expectations and demands, negative judgments, harassment and economic marginalization. I seek to help reduce the suffering of family and community members who are bewildered and distressed by actions of and interactions with autistic people, and who are concerned for their own and others' safety and well-being. I seek to help increase the capability of educators and service providers to provide effective, respectful support for those on the autistic spectrum.

Neurodiversity's resource pages index material from a vast number of websites on autism, reflecting a wide range of information and perspectives. Visitors will also find links to many one-off articles with interesting and innovative content that you only find if you do deep searches. I seek to use my skills as a librarian and web developer to "case the place," to draw attention to what I feel is some of the most substantive material available, and to organize that information with a view to accuracy and ease of use. I have made a special effort to accumulate links to as many first person accounts as possible, and to full-text versions of peer-reviewed professional journal articles available free-of-charge. Eventually I'll incorporate abstracts and subscription-only material. No doubt the opinionated reader will find links to material he or she finds objectionable. So be it! As a student in library school many moons ago, I was encouraged by my most inspiring, most radical teachers to suspend personal ideology when selecting materials for public consumption, to trust the intelligence and judgment of the library patron, to let every voice be heard."

I summarize this as "I am a coward who has a child who has a learning disability and I am angry that I cannot help my child. Because I am weak and simply willing to let my child's condition define his existence I need to attack parents of children who are stroner than I and are fighting to bring attention to the fact that the diabilities suffered by these children was not fate, but the result of an egregious decision by the CDC to allow a toxic substance to be used in a certain childhood vaccinations."

For whatever reason Ms. Siedel has decided to say "que sera sera, what ever will be will be" and instead of fighting for her child's future she attacks the intentions and motives of those fighting for their children. Her personal choice is her right and I take no issue with that. What I take issue with is her attempts to derail the efforts to obtain the truth about the epidemic of children whith neurological disabilities and the etiology of same.

Yesterday I returned home from a conference in Georgia held at at retreat site called "Simpsonwood" where seven years ago a cladestine meeting was put together by the CDC to study data showing a possible connection between the presence of Thimerosal in childhood vaccinations and the profound increase in the diagnosis of neurological disorders of children receiving these vaccinations. The data was collected by a Dr. Thomas Verstraeten. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the data and determine whether or not vaccines containing thimerosal could cause neurological disorders when injected into the bloodstream of a newborn child.

Simpsonwood is a retreat center run by the United Methodist Church and was chosen as the site for the conference this week because it is the same location where the secret meetings by the CDC referenced above took place seven years earlier in June, 2000. The Women's division of the Church was a sponsor of the meeting along with Moms against Mercury, an organization unrelated to the church and run by a woman named Amy Carson. Ms. Carson is also the mother of a child who has been diagosed as being "on the autism spectrum" as is Ms. Siedel. However Ms. Carson is an intelligent, informed and tenacious fighter who seeks to hold the CDC accountable for its egregious conduct in covering up the findings of the data collected in the study from the American public, resulting in the continued use of these vaccines and the devastating harm to the children receiving the vaccine. Ms. Siedel does not have this courage and is apparently afraid of challenging the government. Instead she attacked the church for co-sponsoring the meeting and specifically exploited the fact that Reverend Lisa Sykes, also a mother of a child on the spectrum, was one of the women involved in organizing the meeting.

To cast a shadow of doubt over the conference Ms. Sidel wrote to Julie Taylor, the executive director of the Women's Division accussing the church of sponsoring an event that had legal and political ramifications which in her opinion was not permitted by the church. She dragged Revered Sykes into the fray to raise the issue of a conflict of interest stating that the Reverend is part of an omnibus suit by parents which is scheduled to begin on June 11, 2007 in the Vaccine Compensation Injury Court.

Ms Seidel's attempt to cast doubt on the motives of the church and some of the church members is simply her cowardly response to a fight. By creating a fictional conflict of interest issue, Ms. Sidel becomes significant in her own mind while she contiues to bury her head in the sand from the safety of her keyboard in New Hamphire. Instead of reading any garbage from Ms. Seidel I encourage anyone who is serious about this issue to read the minutes from the CDC meeting in 2000. The transcrpt is replete with references to the dangers of vaccinating children with vaccines containing Thimerosal. It clearly shows the cover up and the reasons for same. Perhaps the most telling quote is from one of the physicians who attended the meeting, Dr. Johnson, who talks about how he was worried by the data. Coincidentally Dr. Johnson had to excuse himself from the meeting because his sons's wife had just given birth to a baby boy. His parting words are hauting as he talks about his newborn grandson...
" Our first male in the line of our next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on...I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal free vaccines". Sickening wouldn't you agree. The full transcript can be obtained from www.safeminds.com and numerous other websites advocating the removal of mercury from vaccines. Please get it and read it and read it again. Than start talking to everyone you know about it.
Respectfully,
Russel V. Mancino