I couldn't tell what the end product of this deposition will be from what Kathleen Seidel posted on her blog. This legal request for information though, is certainly a good sign that the legal process might be able to shut up this bunch of wacked out weirdos from Neurodiversity.
It would be nice to discover a money trail that allows these deranged mutts to lie about autism all day long on their disgraceful blogs. It would be even better if this pack of liars could be held liable by parents who believed their lies and missed valuable time in trying to cure their children.
I can imagine being brand new to the world of autism with a damaged child and the first site I find on the internet is Kathleen Seidel telling me that a Dr who cures autism is a dirty, rotten, scoundrel or whatever she calls them. How many people believe Seidel and other lunatics who tell parents that autism is something to be celebrated? Imagine if your first foray into learning about autism has you stumbling onto Amanda Baggs site where you learn that your kid might grow up to be fat and lazy but will be able to type and care for itself? Such bullshit.
I've spent lots of time exposing these assholes for what they are but, not being a lawyer, I haven't been able to do anything about it besides making them look foolish. Now, we have every nitwit available from the Cult of Neuroinsanity blogging their little guts out to defend their slimey leader. Reminds me of having about 20 nitwits bashing me when Leech accused me of attacking his kid so he could give himself an excuse to take a break from blogging. I quite enjoyed the mass character assassination, as it was obvious to all sane people that it was just coming from nitwits.
I hope Mr Shoemaker is enjoying the circus as well.
I've been suggesting that the stocks would be a good punishment for Kathleen. Mr Shoemaker probably has something else in mind. Anything that will shut her up so she'll stop misinforming the public will be fine with me, Cliff. Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to rid the world of autism of a true slug. My son Sam, thanks you too.
As a show of support for Cliff Shoemaker, I'm sending him a check to help defray his costs in this matter. I'd like to suggest everyone else that can afford a few bucks do the same.
Cliff Shoemaker
Shoemaker and Associates
9711 Meadowlark Rd
Vienna, VA 22182
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66 comments:
Cliff Shoemaker ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's about time Kathleen gets a taste of her own medicine!!!!!! Go CLIFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What exactly does this mean, the subpeona?
I just did some reading on this issue to try to understand it and it looks like ND is about to collapse from the inside out. How exciting! It is about time these vaccine touting liars got their comeuppance. They should all be lined up and given dozens of vaccines one after the next and then left to see how their bodies and minds feel afterwards. When tey fall terribly ill afters tell them to embrace their illness. Talk about death by lethal injection. That's what vaccines are, death by lethal injection.
You are so funny, John. I know you won't approve this, but it makes me feel good to laugh at how funny you are. Good thing we won't ever meet in person; I'm not sure I could take the amusement and might die laughing.
Im sorry, Im having trouble locating ND. Would anyone be able to point me to this organization and information on it?
Thanks Foresam.
What's that Chinese saying? The head of the fish rots first..
:)
The supoena hasn't been completed properly (see last page of the PDF linked). It will fail.
Who cares - he can reissue the supoena. One can only hope she gets caught in her own evil web. Too bad, so sad. Ha! Ha! LOL!!!!
No he can't. That's double jeopardy. Unless he issues an amended one before a decision is made.
Knowing you as I do, this was, of course, exactly the response that I expected. And even though I know that there's virtually no chance you'll understand or accept what I'm about to say, I feel compelled to try nonetheless.
Jose Padilla, as you may recall, was grabbed and locked up for years without being tried, charged, or given access to an attorney. One of the reasons that we civil libertarians object so strongly to this kind of thing is simply that, if the government can do that to Jose Padilla, they can do it to anyone.
Similarly, if the legal system can be abused to intimidate Kathleen Seidel, it can be abused to intimidate anyone -- including you. That being the case, I would hope that you come around and realize that, even though you view her as an enemy, there are some tactics that are simply too dangerous and onerous to be employed against her.
If, conversely, you do continue to hold the view that Shoemaker's actions are proper (as I'm almost certain you will), do remember that, by taking this stance, you have publicly forfeited any right to object if the same tactic is ever used on you. Indeed, you've explicitly endorsed it. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Anon,
Don't know who Jose Padilla is. He should have had a right to defend himself, whatever he did.
Seidel is trying to prevent autistic kids from being cured by using character assassination on a heroic doctor. I'm in favor of the death penalty for anything that obstructs a cure for this nightmare known as autism.
If she has to forfeit all her assets in a lawsuit, she's getting off easy.
I can see the judge now if someone tries to sue me. I point out disingenuous arguments that try to tell the world to celebrate the joy of feces smearing, self-biting and bashing one's head through walls. I laugh at phoney autistics. I tell people how to cure mercury poisoning misnamed autism.
If someone wants to see my emails, I'll be happy to show them where I obtained my information about Amanda Baggs.
Is someone going to sue me for telling the truth, pointing out that self-diagnosed idiots who claim to have Asperger's have nothing in common with autistic kids who wind up in asylums.
If you think you're safe from being sued for what you say on this blog (or, indeed, for anything else at all), you should really think again. In the United States, you can sue anyone for anything. The entire country is litigation crazy.
If you haven't heard of Jose Padilla, have you heard about the bozo in the DC area -- a judge, too, no less -- who filed a $67 million lawsuit against a dry cleaning company because they lost a pair of his pants? No, I'm not making that up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pants_lawsuit
The Chungs successfully defended themselves in court, since the suit was obviously frivolous, but the loss of revenue and the emotional strain of the suit still ended up forcing them to close their dry cleaning shop.
So I say again: think very hard before endorsing any abuse of the legal system, no matter how much you may dislike the target of the abuse. If it can happen to them, it can happen to anyone -- including you.
Anon,
If someone who is a liar tries to sue me for telling the truth, they are going to waste a lot of their own money.
I think Mr Shoemaker has gone after a fraud who misrepresents the truth about autism. By not metioning the fact that Dr Geier is curing autistic kids, everything else she says, no matter how true any of it might be, adds up to nothing more than character assassination.
I think Mr Shoemaker is doing a great service to all autistic children by going after her and the rest of the idiots who oppose curing autism. In fact, I'm going to add onto this post and suggest that people send Mr Shoemaker contribuitions to help defray his costs. I'm writing a check now to send to him.
I wish I understood more about this legal process. I wonder what kind of things are being sought in the various information demanded in the deposition. It sure sounds interesting that documents of Seidel's communications are being demanded. I wonder what is in them that pertains to the case. There has to be more to it than Seidel would like to portray. I hope this deposition goes far.
--lurker
You need to thinka bout this from a legal standpoint. Let's assume for a second that Shomaker is correct and Seidel is wrong. Even if this is the case, Seidel has no connection to this case unless they are alleging that she is invloved in some sort of massive conspiracy to doctor the evidence used against them, which is rather far-fetched. You don't get to subpoena peopel because they're bad journalists. They have to have material information related to the case.
Ace,
We don't know exactly what MR Shoemaker is looking for or why. We do know that the neurodiverse are misinforing the public about autism. So, Go Cliff!!
I know this is tangential, but I have to ask, and I'm not being snarky or anything like that, I'm honestly puzzled. How can you not know who Jose Padilla is? The Padilla situation was huge, huge news for about four or five years. Not knowing who Jose Padilla is is like not knowing who Monica Lewinsky is. I've never considered you a particularly well-informed person, but even so, that really surprises me.
Seidel complained to the church of the Sykes family that she was using church backing to get thimerosol removed from vaccines. Shoemaker works for the Sykes family therefore Seidel insinuated herself into this case. I guess that is why Shoemaker went after her.
Anyway who goes after vaccine makers is fine by me.
Anon,
OK, I looked up Padilla and saw he was a terrorist. So, I can see why you'd want to associate him with Seidel.
I wasn't associating Padilla with Seidel. I was using the Padilla case to try to demonstrate that due process exists for a reason. Yes, Padilla was a terrorist, and he deserves to be in prison. Even so, though, you can't just lock someone up for years and years without even charging him with a crime -- that's unconstitutional, and that's all there is to it. Saying that Padilla (or Seidel, or anyone else) is entitled to due process of law is not saying he's innocent, or that you like him, or anything else; it's only saying that he has rights. Civil libertarians object to situations like the one with Padilla because we know that if one person can be deprived of their rights, anyone can.
All of this, by the way, is why, if you were locked up for years without being charged, or if you were subpoenaed by someone just because he thought you were a jerk and wanted to shut you up, I'd object just as strongly as I do to what happened to Padilla and what's happening now to Seidel.
I notice you didn't even try to answer my question about how you could be so incredibly ignorant of the world around you as to not even know who Padilla is? Front page news for years and years, and you never heard of him? Seriously, I can't understand how that's even possible -- but even so, I guess it certainly explains a lot about you.
Anon,
I agree, Seidel belongs in prison, just like the terrorist.
As to what you consider news, you probably don't know who Patrick Biancone is or why he was in the news last year. His crimes have more of an effect on me so I remember his name.
Seidel hasn't been locked up, yet. She has only been asked to supply information. If she has nothing to hide, it should be no big deal. You can hardly compare her to a terrorist who had plans to release a "dirty" bomb, even though giving out false information about autism is a horrible crime against autistic children. She could actually be stupid enough to believe that what she writes is sane. So, it's possible she could evade justice via diminished capacity.
Your OP doesn't even make sense: for one, you talk about parents of autistic children coming on and being discouraged by what Kathleen says, but - how do I put this? - have you ever been on the Internet? Used a search engine? That's not a problem with what Kathleen has said - she has a right to say what she wants, just as you (unfortunately) do as well - but with people not being able to think critically when researching a topic. You can't police the Internet for false information, and you certainly shouldn't be able to use the legal system to intimidate someone like Kathleen has. I wouldn't even wish this sort of thing on you, even though I'd definitely like to see you shut up. The fact that you're parading this around as a good thing says a lot about you; I almost have to wonder if you'd throw a party if an autistic blogger was killed in a car accident.
Not that I have much hope that you'll listen to this (or even publish it); from what I've seen of your posting in the past, it's clear that your head is a thoroughly impenetrable membrane. But hey, at least I tried.
Brody,
If you have trouble commenting here, using a name will help you avoid problems.
Kathleen is well aware that Dr Geier is curing autistic children. Not mentioning that fact makes her a liar. Assassinating his character with extraneous information has nothing to do with his treatment of autism. She made it seem like Dr Geier was doing something wrong by suggesting he was scamming insurance companies. I think the wrong there was that the insurance companies would not pay for treatments that helped damaged children. That says to me that Kathleen is trying to prevent autistic children from being cured. So yes, if someone who is trying to prevent me from curing my son is killed in a car crash, I'll be very happy about that.
Brody,
I'll also be very happy if George Bush, Bill Frist, Judd Gregg, John Sununu, John Lynch, Julie Gerberding and Paul Offitt are all killed in car crashes. But, I'd rather see them hang.
One day JB, you'll be on the receiving end from Anne B, so crow away while the sun shines...
Casa,
I doubt that Anne B wants to have herself brought into question for saying her own client was a fraud. It looks to me like the only people she has gone after are those who were reporting the truth about her client.
She managed to scare an autistic woman. Lawyers don't get much scummier than that.
you are all a bunch of freaky-deaky nutjobs
get a medical degree (or, if you've got one, shame on your ass)
i just have a question? i am being sincere since you obviously know more about this than me...my son is 5 and is autistic, he was adopted and never recieved ANY immunizations as an infant. are you saying that he can not have autism...then what is wrong with him?
Look at Joy Of Autism blog regarding Seidel. This Estee person is very clueless. I feel very sorry for her kid.
Rachel,
I would have him tested for genetics to see if he has fragile X or some other defect. I'd then check to see if the mother had any thimerosal containing shots while pregnant, dental work involving amalgams or any other sources of mercury. I'd do this by checking with a DAN doctor.
You can go to Generation Rescue and check with a parent in your area to find out about doctors near you.
I would also check with the yahoo group Autism Mercury, arrange for a hair test to check for deranged mineral transport and ask Andy Cutler or another competent person there to interpret it for you.
If mercury turns out to be a problem, I would read what Andy Cutler has to say about his chelation protocol and consider it.
All of the mainstream doctors I have seen just told me there is no known cause or cure for autism so I believe seeing a DAN doctor is your best chance to help your kid.
anon Estee may pretend to be clueless. I think she is quite cruel. Don't feel sorry for her child. I saw her description of him on her blog, and he isn't really adversely affected much, and is apparently high functioning. Her child has it and will have it a whole lot better than the children who are most in need of improvement. It is about what could be expected with a parent with Estee's views. If her child was an unfortunate autistic, she likely would be on the other side of the debate.
I think Estee just likes to be on TV. The news programs want someone who's really stupid and won't say anything controversial.
I think Estee is delusional. Her son can't speak yet she claims he read at 9 months old and can type using facilitated communication. It is not surprising someone this gullible would fall for a misproven treatment such as FC. She's full of it and who can believe anything she says about her son.
She also clearly admires herself greatly--I guess someone has to!
i had my son checked for fragile x. it came back negative. the birth mother had no immunizations while pregnant and she had no dental work done. again, are you saying that he can not have autism...then what is wrong with him?
Rachel, You should ask a DAN doctor, not some guy who has a blog.
Who is the dumb ass that said issuing a supoena is double jeapardy? Double jeapardy applies to a criminal trial. Alex, I'll take double jeapardy for ten.
"Double jeapardy applies to a criminal trial."
Double jeopardy (lrn to spll!!) applies to ALL legal actions - dumb ass.
uhhh..don't know why someone is impersonating me...i guess to get a rise out of someone on this site...i only posted the first comment. thank you for responding forsam. i think it is pretty childish that someone is trying to use my legitimate questions to this blogger as a way to start or settle some kind of dispute.
Rachel,
The neurodiverse nitwits do things like this all the time. I think it's a cry for help as they wish they had decent parents who would cure them.
I apologize for their disregard for your child. Please forgive them, it's the mercury in their brains talking.
stop impersonating me, whoever you are! my child has autism, but was never immunized, and i did all the checks. what is wrong with my child?
Hi John,
Now I see why Dave Seidel
posted his comment on Autismweb about you. I was just wondering why someone would be so concerned about a dr helping ASD kids and having their treatment covered under the health insurance plans that they pay premiums every month to have and not a person collecting fraudulent disability from the government? Hmmm. Doesn't that seem strange to you?
And I can't imagine anyone comparing this situation to Padilla! Wow, did the law pick up Kathleen and lock her up with "no Miranda rights?"
Didn't think so. But like I said I think she'd be chomping at the bit to "Get the Truth Out," but no, she's trying her best to quash this subpeona.
And John, it's not costing her a red cent according to her motion to quash, it was done "pro se" which means she filed the motion herself without legal representation. Lawyer's aren't needed for legal proceedings, anyone can go down to the courthouse and file the legal documents themselves with the clerk. (Most lawyers don't want people to know this, cause then everyone would file there own legal papers without lawyers!) But I'm sure she has attorney's giving her advice.
Anyway, I wonder why she's so vehemently trying to quash? I thought she sacrificed everything in her life for autism and people with disabilities. I guess all that was just lip service, huh?
DG,
I'm not surprised Dave Seidel posted something about me where he didn't think I'd see it. You wouldn't expect Dave to state his opinion like a man, would you?
The neuronitwits have no bounds when it comes to supporting unethical behavior that harms children.
The double jeopardy rule arises from the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, the relevant clause of which reads
“ nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb ”
This clause is intended to limit abuse by the government in repeated prosecution for the same offense as a means of harassment or oppression. It is also in harmony with the common law concept of res judicata which prevents courts from relitigating issues which have already been the subject of a final judgment.
Res judicata applies to civil litigation, not double jeopardy.
Nothing of the sort, a lawsuit awaits Mr Shoemaker if he enters my territory with his toilet paper subpoenas, I will show him what the law means damn rebel colonies, never would submit to King George would you :)
I might sue you too, but where would the fun be in that? Nah I'll take you on at golf or whatever you call it, instead.
Seriously though I have taken a domain name from Autism speaks, and they have not bothered to sue me yet, not worth the bother it seems. Probably because Europe is Europe and we do things differently here.
If you want to get a lawyer to intimidate us (that's the 12 foot lizards in case you don't know), make sure you get a competent one, Mr Shoemaker seems to have cocked up big time.
DG,
I looked at Dave's comments. He thinks 50 neuronitwits blogging in favor of dishonesty outweighs one sane person blogging against them. The truth wins every time, no matter how many nitwits try to shout it down.
DGDAVIS,
Could you explain to sissy Dave on Autism Web that I advise people to post here anonymously so scumbags like his wife don't snatch their quotes out of context to use against them? The smear campaigns by the Seidel family just never end. It's too bad they don't know how to be honest.
Whoever is sockpuppeting Rachel, please knock it off. I'm an aspie, but you guys seriously need to understand the concept of rules of engagement.
Rachel, sorry.
Laurentius rex, what domain name did you take from Autism speaks?
Wow, I've been out of action for a while. Kathleen is getting reamed, I have one word:
Karma.
I popped onto the AS board to snoop around tonight & saw where the Deeves appears to have crawled out from under her trailer to throw a coniption fit.....someone suggested she was facing legal action herself.
Deeves huffed & she puffed....however, she still hasn't touched her blog......
(Too busy massaging her dog?)
She is blogging on a site owned by Amanda Baggs though, "gray matter/ white matter" (what's-a-matter, deeves?)
Why move to a new site, when you had so many adoring fans???
Anyway, I do remember reading some posts months ago by folks who asked her to post, just one time to prove it wasn't true....she didn't. Somebody shut her up.
Again, one word:
Karma.
It doesn't matter what Shoemaker is looking for. if it's not directly related to the case, this subpoena is an abuse of process and a serious ethical breach. If he does have reason to believe she si conencted tot he case, the specifics of this should have been in the subpoena. Try to look beyond your feelings abotu the case and the people involved and see the issues here. If Seidel has done Shoemaker wrong, not issuing a subpoena to a case she has no direct connection to. This of it this way, if I shoplift from Wal-Mart, does that mean Wal-Mart can force me to appear as a witness where they're being prosecuted for illegal labor practices? That's essentially what happening here. Unless you want to find the drug companies in this case forcign you to turn all records of your life over to them and show up an testify, you should oppose this.
"Autism is not genetic."
Then how do you explain that almost everyone gets vaccinated and only some get autism?
Ace,
What case? How do we know what case Shoemaker is concerned with? It didn't say. The subpoena only requested information. Maybe the case in question is one that has not yet been filed.
Axinar,
Google Donald Miller, MD
Well, Diva huffed and she puffed & now the site "gray matter/'white matter" (gmwm.autistics.org) has gone "poof".
Wow, Diva won't post to the blog she owns, so she blogs on a site owned by Baggs, and it has disappeared.
I smell litigation......yep, Diva's in deep shit, right beside Kathleen, may they burn in hell.
"...yep, Diva's in deep shit, right beside Kathleen, may they burn in hell."
along with Amanda Baggs, Laura Tisconcik, the entire of "Neurodiversity" "Wrong Planet" "AspiesForFreedom,"
Sanjay Gupta, drug corporation fatcats, government officials, the CDC, doctors, all who have participated, everyone who's been party to this
every last dirtbag who has and continues to prey on this sect of the disabled like this,
every piece of scum who is sucking the life out of and who rides on the back of autism and autistics,
every one of them who has actively sought to torment and beleaguer these as well as their parents, teachers, doctors, caregivers, service providers,
yes the entire lot of them who've wickedly savaged everyone involved with this disability,
In the deepest hottest bowels at the core, should these burn,
turning slowly on a rotisserie, for all eternity.
@Foresam: Do you even know what a subpoena is? It's a summons to testify in a case. To try to compell someone to testify in a case when they have no actual testimony to give and you are just trying to harass them is unethical. That's what the uproar is about.
Ace,
I think Seidel has quite a bit of testimony that she can give. I'd like to help write the questions to ask her and would hope she'd be hooked up to a polygraph.
I see that you are a gutless coward who refuses to post a message linking to Kirby and Olmsted criticizinbg Shoemaker.
Yes, you are an asshole.
As much as I hate to defend foresam, if you are talking about the Kirby/Olmsted statement it has been posted on another thread here.
http://www.autismspeaks.eu
Who wants to buy it off me?
I also took a domain from the NAS and they know it :)
That one is not for sale though.
Foresam what makes you think that you and Shoemaker arereally on the same side, he would eat you for breakfast if it suited him.
Anyway I don't think you would really like to see Kathleen's site go down because you'd have nothing to blog about then would you? Do you know Cavafy's poem "waiting for the barbarians"?
Larry,
I support any effort by anyone that might shut up lying bitches who promote untrue garbage concerning autism.
You're right, if Neuroinsanity vanishes, I'll have no reason to keep blogging. But, I could start bashing politicians instead of neuronitwits.
Go Cliff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seidel! OMG what a fruitcake! She is crying all over her blog about it. She is a self-disagnosed idiot who slanders people right and left and is part of this "Oh yeah we have autism and we are great" group. That is fine but some of us wish we had things a bit easier.
Boyd Haley and Dr Miller should have sued her sorry butt for what she said about them and "mad cow disease". It was taken totally out of context.
She has sent letters to Universities and Publications slandering people all over the place.
She has no life and I feel sorry for her.
Her website is nothing more than an attempt at fame for herself and it is a pathetic attempt at that.
I am sorry she was not racked over the coals for it.
What a vindictive asshole she is.
Shoemaker is my hero even if he didn't get her on the stand. She is gloating all over herself on her page but it appears more a technicality than anything and she is hardly intelligent enough to do her own legal work.
She is a piece of work of the very worst kind.
Imagine what it must be like for a wimpy guy like Dave to be married to her. I wouldn't want to be him when it's her time of the month.
I hope Seidel, Bain and Shore and some of these other "Yeah we have autism" and our opinion is the only right one that counts and we only believe in free speech if you agree with us and we will slander anyone who disagrees.
Bain and the wacked out bunch of idiots at wrong planet and Seidel and the bunch of Sufi loving people at Neurodiversity, Autism Diva and all the other nut jobs should rot in hell for the damage they have done.
A mom just getting a diagnosis finds them and heaven help her.
Bain actually said in an email that was made public that she does not use the phone because "its an aspie thing". WTF? She is a self diagnosed aspie who now can't even use the phone?
Seidel attacks anyone who disagrees with her. Autism Diva, no doubt another self diagnosed aspie, just has no life and seems to be a hateful vindictive bitch.
The fact that there does seem to be such a thing as karma I find so damn comforting you have no idea.
I wish other people would sue the two of them and get them to shut their lying hate filled mouths.
Whoa, I feel better now after that little rant ROFL
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